offsets

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david ayers
david ayers's picture
offsets

    V:14

    The offsets of ceiling components are repeatedly being altered by SP.  The last couple of days RE-corrected ceiling component offsets a dozen times. Fully expect to be changed again the next time I open the drawing. Sometimes they are changed to the offset of some other ceiling components, sometimes to an offset of unknown origin. Does anyone know what makes this happen? Or how to make it not happen? The Levels are assigned per offset: all components on a 10" clg are Level 1, all on a 12' clng are Level 2, etc.

     Sometimes other components' offsets get changed somehow by SP, such as floor components, or other important components of a house, such as . . say . . . walls.

    This AM attempt to get correct roof configuration, while in roof mode, on a generated roof far from the garage, resulted in all of the garage walls, at the other end of the house, changing offset to several feet above foundation. Very strange. After fixing it, the same thing happened again later, but this time with only a some of the garage walls having been affected instead of all of them. Any input on unprompted offset changes much appreciated.

David Ayers

Bill Wimberley
Bill Wimberley's picture
offsets

Ceiling components such as joists are controlled by the Level that they are assigned. When you edit a component that belongs to a level then ALL other components anywhere else on the plan that has that same level assignment are affected. Say for instance you have a set of ceiling joists assigned to Level 1 and somewhere else on the plan you have another joist set also set to Level 1. If you make any changes to either one then it affects the other. So for each different offset you will need to FIRST assign the components a new level and then make any necessary changes. It is easy to want to edit a component first and then assign it a level but you have to assign the level first.

The same thing applies to floor system components as well. But an additional factor to consider is that walls will automatically adjust to sit on a floor system if you either draw the wall after you create the floor system or if you select Cleanup while in Floor System mode. From what you are describing it would appear that you changed the offset for a floor system but did not use cleanup to adjust the walls to sit on the new floor elevation.

If you will upload your plan I would be happy to take a look at it and see if I can determine what is causing the problem. Without actually seeing the plan I don't have any way of knowing exactly what is going on. You can attach files directly to a forum message. If you are concerned about passing around your files in this manner you can put them in a zip file and password protect it. Then send me a private message with the password. Otherwise just attach the file to the forum.

Bill is the owner and maintainer of SoftPlanTuts.com

david ayers
david ayers's picture
        Thanks for that

        Thanks for that information, Bill. Seems to be excellent as always.

        Would checking anchor "anchor" components' offsets?

        Ceiling plates don't seem to respond the same to fillet and extend line commands as do walls, beam, lines, shelves, etc. Ceiling plates won't come together, but instead will stay about half a foot or so apart. It is also frequently difficult or impossible to get them to react to adjust command; occasionally a ceiling plate won't even react to erase or even block erase. Clicking directly on reference dots frequently helps a lot, but even that is sometimes without effect. Puzzling. Seems like they should react to same commands the same as other components.

       I thought I would upload for consideration a file set with all but bearing / exterior walls, beams, ceilings, roof, and floor removed. Shouldn't this in theory work for a second party remotely making observations about ceilings, roofs, etc?  Test of "send" file seems to indicate I'm not getting all the right files in it. I'll try some more. Hope I can figure it out, as I have some roof issues / solutions / lack-of-solutions that are complex and likely I think to be of interest.

 

Bill Wimberley
Bill Wimberley's picture
I would need to see an actual

I would need to see an actual drawing file to track down what is causing your problems. There are just so many variables to look at as the possible cause. I can generally track it down rather quickly if I have the drawing file. Otherwise it would just be guessing.

david ayers
david ayers's picture
       Enclosed drawing

       Enclosed drawing contains bearing walls of roof in question. By moving wall “A” off to left of where it actually is on real floor plan by one foot, and by moving group of walls and one beam at front porch to the right 21” have managed to get SP to configure the roof to very close to what it actually should be per real floor plan. If the roof reference dots would “stick” (don’t know a better way to describe it, offhand) when I move those items back into correct positions, the roof configuration would be right. But they won’t stick; they jump to seemingly illogical locations and create if anything an absurd / nightmarish version of the correct configuration. So the problem seems to be getting SP roof mode to reference the bearing member specified. It WONT reference any bearing member that has or does not have  .  .  .  .   (fill in the blank)
     Any thoughts, input, opinions, or help much appreciated.

EDIT: Added real layout to drawing.
 

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Package icon New Compressed (zipped) Folder.zip134.96 KB
Bill Wimberley
Bill Wimberley's picture
Roof

Your roof plan has 2 problems.

On the left portion you are trying to create a roof that is raised in the center section but you want the overhangs to be the same on the lower and upper portions. But you are trying to do this all with one roof. The problem you are having is caused by the fact that the configuration you are trying to accomplish would create edges that are 0" in length. You can correct this by making the overhang for the upper portion just slightly larger than the lower section. For instance if the overhang for the lower section is 17" you could make the upper section overhang 17.1". The other way you could do this would be to make the upper section a separate roof and then use the Roof Hole command to cut out the roof below.

On the other part of the roof the problem is that once again you are trying to do everything as one single roof. But on that section when you move the walls into the proper location the roof edges overlap. For that roof you will have to do it as a separate roof section in order to prevent the overlap. Overlaps aren't necessarily a bad thing as far as design goes. They are just a bad thing when trying to get SoftPlan to do a roof as all one single unit.

david ayers
david ayers's picture
Thanks, Bill.

Thanks, Bill.
        Yes, I am trying to do the whole roof configuration (except for back porch low pitch shed) as one roof / SP polygon. One set of clicks around the building creates correct roof is the goal. Probably not the roof as wanted in a lot of aspects, but a correct roof none the less. An SP polygon that has the necessary sides referencing the necessary bearing to be editable into virtually any other correct roof configuration referencing those same bearings is, or was, the objective. It sounds like your saying that shouldn’t be the objective.
         Doing it with two or more allows getting much closer to real configuration, and is not as difficult, but the issues that come with using more than one polygon are pretty annoying. Usually have to add bearings that aren’t part of the real plan to have something to reference a side of a poly to. The framing will always be wrong, as SP sets framing members per polygon. Unwanted roof areas will always be present. Remove them with Cut Hole, but that always has unwanted consequences too. Parts of the cut out cornice appearing as strange shapes protruding through or floating above model or cluttering the attic. So I’ve always seen one roof section / one SP polygon as the objective. And I’ve never been able to do it with really complex roof configurations, which are most of my work. 
     In enclosed the only variance from real configuration of bearings / roof is the dormer (rock veneer) is slid right one foot from its real location. Moving it any closer to its real location scrambles the entire roof poly.
      No, my roof configuration shouldn't have any 0” overhangs. Maybe I’ve done something in SP that would cause SP to want to do that, but it’s not a part of my design. Overhangs have to have to all be about 17”at tails, at all of the various bearing offsets. I’m still trying to grasp the rest of your first paragraph. I’ll get back to it.
     Second paragraph sounds like you’re saying that overlapping roof edges are a problem for SP? Ummmm . .. .  . But there are always by necessity overlapping roof sections every time the bearing offset changes. Which has been multiple times on a large majority of my work At least since the mid-eighties, anyway.  Maybe I’m not correctly or incompletely grasping your meaning of overlaps.

       I’ll post some relevant hypothetical roof configs I have for discussion. Thanks again.

   
 

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Package icon New Compressed (zipped) Folder.zip160.24 KB
Bill Wimberley
Bill Wimberley's picture
Roof

Ok, I looked at what you sent this time and what you did was to create 2 complete roofs. One on top of another. What I was talking about was to do a main roof that was all on one level, without the raised sections. Then add just the raised sections as a separate roof. Then you can use Auto Hole to cut out the areas where the two roofs overlap.

Doing an entire roof as one polygon would be optimal but it is rarely possible except in simple roof configurations. Take for instance a roof that has large gables on each end but a garage that protrudes out the front. If you did this as one polygon and then tried to make the side a gable then the gable would go the entire depth of the house.

On your roof you have one area that you are wanting to be raised above the rest. This works fine if the raised portion is out in front of the lower portion as in the image below. But if you move the wall so that it lines up with the wall below then the polygons at the circled areas become 0" in length and the roof fails. You can't have a 0" length polygon edge. So to do this roof you would have to increase the overhang on the upper portion so the edges are not 0". Even 1/8" will work. But generally you would need to create this roof by moving the wall out, tracing the roof, increasing the overhang at that wall by something like 12", moving the wall back in place, then adjusting the overhang to be 1/8" deeper than the roof below. This extra 1/8" in overhang gives you a 1/8" polygon edge which will work.

The other option would be to make the upper roof a separate roof as in the image below.

The same thing applies to your roof over the front porch. Because the polygon edges are overlapping it is causing the roof to fail. You would have to do that roof by adding another roof on top similar to the image above.

Sometimes you have to add additional walls or beams on the plan to give something for the roof to attach to. If you do not want these walls or beams to print on the floor plan you can always edit them and set them to "Hidden". You will still be able to see them on the screen and use them to attach a roof to but when you print the plans out they will not print.

david ayers
david ayers's picture
  Here's that roof again. It

  Here's that roof again. It's intact and the only difference between this version and the real version are zero offsets at the only two parallel and opposing overlaps. The perpendicular overlaps are all working. For some reason, can see only rafters in 3d, not the actual roof. It is in default layer and default building option. Roof box is checked every place I can find one under Visible Items. Can't figure. Also, know of a good way to shade windows and door glass for elevation prints? The shade in Paint doesn't work too well and everything else from Paint I've tried prints black. Thanks.

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Binary Data Tut 2foot kneewall.spd60.89 KB
Bill Wimberley
Bill Wimberley's picture
Roof

I opened the plan and all the rafters are showing on the roof. Perhaps you need to restart SoftPlan?

For your opening shading define one of your pens that you don't use elsewhere, #16 perhaps, and make the color a light grey. Then assign that pen to your paint patterns you are using to shade the windows. Pen colors and screen colors are different animals. Just as you might have red rafters on screen but you print them as black lines. So if your paint is assigned a black pen it will print as black. A grey pen will print as gray and so on.

david ayers
david ayers's picture
         Yep. The roof and

         Yep. The roof and the rafters show in Roof Mode but not in 3d Mode. Don't know if roof shows in elevation. Will check. Do know that a different file that was originated as a "save as" of that one also has the same weirdness. I'll try isolating the file in it's own folder and see what happens.

           Will do on the shade thing.

           What does the affix "tuts" as used here mean?

           This thread has certainly wandered a bit from its topic title, has it not?

           Thanks again, Bill.

     

Bill Wimberley
Bill Wimberley's picture
Rafters

Ah, well that would be different. You previously said "For some reason, can see only rafters in 3d, not the actual roof." which meant to me that you could see the rafters in 3D but not in 2D.

To see the rafters in 3D make sure that from within the 3D view you select Options-->Extraction Options and place a check next to Roof Framing. Also check your materials settings and make sure that Framing is not turned off. While in 3D select Edit Surface then click on the roof. In the list of materials make sure that "Framing" is active.

The "Tuts" is short for Tutorials

david ayers
david ayers's picture
No prob on the rafters. They

No prob on the rafters. They're on in plan and 3d. It's the roof itself that is in plan only. Sorry for the mix-up.

Bill Wimberley
Bill Wimberley's picture
Roof Material

While in 3D select Material from the menu at the top. Click on Roof in the list of materials assignments. Make sure that the material for the roof is turned on.

david ayers
david ayers's picture
I'll try it. I expect it to

I'll try it. I expect it to work because I've already tried everything else.