Ceiling joists for the 2nd loor of a 1 1/2 story home

You are here

13 posts / 0 new
Last post
Tom Sams
Tom Sams's picture
Ceiling joists for the 2nd loor of a 1 1/2 story home
SoftPlan Version:
2014 Plus

Good morning all,

I'm trying to place ceiling joist for the 2nd floor of a 1 1/2 story home.  Can someone steer me in the right direction?  If I go to the ceiling option for the 2nd floor theonly thing that shows up is the corner reference, so I can't outlinn the walls for the joists, and I don't see anything within the roof framing section to make it happin either...  Another thing that has me boggled is that when I go to the cross section and select a wall to adjust to the roof line, the wall appears to go al theway through the roof.  I have the drawings on the Cloud if anyone would like to take a look-see. I've also included the section here .

 

Thanks, Tom

AttachmentSize
Binary Data Section AA.spd35.36 KB
Bill Wimberley
Bill Wimberley's picture
Wall Definitions

Tom, I was looking at that cross section and scratching my head trying to figure out why the walls looked the way they did. Then I looked at your wall definitions and found the problem. You have changed your wall definitions for Partition 3.5" and 2x6 Siding to be 120" tall but you didn't adjust the stud height or plate location to accommodate the new height. You will need to go into your Drawing Options and change those walls back so they are correct. If you just changed them for this one project then the easiest way would be to select Reset to System from the Drawing Options wall definitions.

Actually, you should not change the heights of the walls in the wall definitions unless you have some specialized wall that requires it. Just use the normal sized walls and edit them to be whatever size you want after you draw them out. You can edit one wall, adjust its height, and then use Repeat Edit or Repeat Edit Box to make the same change to all the rest of the walls in the drawing.

So your wall definitions are what is causing the problems with the cross sections. As far as your ceiling problem I don't know without looking at the project. If you will share it with me I'll take a look.

Bill is the owner and maintainer of SoftPlanTuts.com

Tom Sams
Tom Sams's picture
1 1/2 Story

Thanks Bill, I'll give it shot and authorize you access to the cloud. I think I still have your ID.

 

Tom

Bill Wimberley
Bill Wimberley's picture
Mystery Solved

I was stumped by this one for a bit. It made no sense that the walls would be there in Drawing Mode but not there in any other mode even though the other modes had visibility on for walls. Then it dawned on me that you may have placed your walls on a layer. And that is the problem. You added your walls to layers but you didn't make those layers visible in any of the other modes.

So in Ceiling Mode select Options tab--> Visible Items. In the Layers Group turn on Exterior Walls and Interior Walls and then you will see the walls in Ceiling Mode. You will have to repeat this for all the other modes that you want to see the walls in. Or, you could edit the walls and set their layer back to Default.

A suggestion. Rather than assigning your walls a layer you can simply turn the visibility off for Exterior Walls or Interior Walls using the Visibility settings for any mode that you don't want to see the walls.

Tom Sams
Tom Sams's picture
Mystery

Thanks Bill, still one or two lingering problems and one question. When I generated the ceiling joist they too extended past the rafters, there isn't. that I can find, a toggle to rake them to the contour of the rafters, second mystery..... I cannot seem to get my walls to set on the floor surface on the 2nd floor.  If I adjust them up the thickness of the floor joists and the subfloor, then the walls go through the roof again.

 

Question: by changing the stud length, and adjusting the plate locations all seems to be well, except the 2nd floor (I did make the adjustments there as well).  My question, does it really matter what length of stud is described in the systems options, shouldn't the length adjust depending on its location, i.e. partition wall on the 2nd floor.  I have unchecked the top plates "Fixed" boxes, so shouldn't they now float along the rafters when the wall, Rake Top & Fit to Roof are selected?  Clear as mud ????

 

Tom

Bill Wimberley
Bill Wimberley's picture
Fixed materials

Tom, the "Fixed" box does not prevent the plates from moving when you adjust the height of the wall. Fixed simply means that the material will stay at the same dimensional size. So you want to keep your plates set to fixed so they will always be 1 1/2" no matter what the size of the wall is. When you edit a wall height then the top moves up and down and takes the plates with it. But if you have Fixed unchecked then the plates will all get smaller or larger as well. So in other words, Fixed controls material size, not location.

I'll have to get back to you on the joists. I've got a foundation plan I need to get out right now.

Bill Wimberley
Bill Wimberley's picture
Joists

Tom, I took a second look at your plan. There are multiple problems with your second floor.

First of all you are using the Square Reference Point. While the Square Reference Point will align floors it has no effect on vertical alignment. For aligning floors you should always use the Round Reference Point.

Secondly you placing your reference point so that it does not have a common wall reference both up and down. I typically use plates to represent the lower floor perimeter on the upper floor. This shows the locations of the walls below as well as giving something for the joists and roof to attach to. As it is your floor jousts are not attached to anything.

You have 2 different levels defined for your floor joists. But both levels are exactly the same. If the joist sizes and offsets are uniform then you do not need more than one joist set. Joist sets are for defining various sizes and offsets. All joists that have the same level will have the same size and offset.

Your joists are set to be 9.5" tall but are offset down 9.25". This places the tops of the joists .25" above the plates below rather than on top of them. Your offsets should be 0" unless you have varying ceiling heights below.

You only have subfloor on some parts of the floor. Since your walls will adjust to sit on top of the subfloor some of your walls are .75" higher than others. But in any event they are all too low because you have your floor joists dropped down below the plates below.

Also, your stairs do not align from floor to floor. Your stairs on the upper floor are offset 1'-8 1/2" to the right of what they are on the main floor.

About your ceiling joists. You have them just floating up in space. They are not actually sitting on the walls. And your walls are of varying heights. So your ceiling joists really don't know where to position themselves.

Just remember that building a house in SoftPlan is just like building a real house. You can't have things just floating around in space. You have to build the floor systems, walls, joists, ceilings, roof, etc. just like a real house or nothing will work our right.

I would really recommend studying some of the example plans that come with SoftPlan. They will give you some good examples of how the various components should be assembled.

 

Mike Landry
Mike Landry's picture
Would using collar ties in

Would using collar ties in the above situation work for the second floor ceiling framing?

 

Mike

Bill Wimberley
Bill Wimberley's picture
Second Floor Redo

Tom, I changed up your Second Floor plan to correct the issues I discussed earlier. Take a look at what I did and it should help you understand how to build out your second floor. I also included a sketch illustrating how the ceiling slope and wall heights were calculated. I moved the floor joists back to on top of the plates below. I also replaced the square reference point with the round reference point. If you use this version of your second floor in your project you will need to change the reference point on your first floor to match.

AttachmentSize
Binary Data Second Floor.spd97 KB
Tom Sams
Tom Sams's picture
The Mud is Clearing

Thanks again Bill.  I restared stareted the 2nd floor after looking at the various stock drawings, but your explanations and drawing really helped clear away some of the murkiness.  It really is likeyou said, keep things in the same order as you would if you were actually building it.  I'm still a little fuzzy concering offsets.  For instance I think you told me the walls should have a 0 offset, but they are aligning to the ceiling below, not the top of the floor system.  I'll revisit that an maybe I can see what I'm doing wrong.

 

Thanks again, Tom

Bill Wimberley
Bill Wimberley's picture
Offsets

Offsets are different depending on what you have going on. Offsets refer to the vertical distance an object is measured from a 0" elevation. For instance on the first floor the walls would offset to the top of the slab. I always set my slabs so that they are offset down 4". The reason for this is that slabs offsets are measured from the bottom of the concrete, not the top. So if the slab were offset at 0 then the top of the 4" slab would be at 4". I like the tops of my slabs to be at 0" so I offset them down 4". This makes my first floor walls offset at 0"

Your second floor walls should be offset to the top of the floor system. And floor systems will sit on the tops of the walls below. Each floor starts with its own 0" elevation so if you set your second floor joists at 0" offset then they will be sitting on top of the walls below. Of course there are all sorts of variables that would change where you actually offset the floor joists but for simplicity I am assuming all the walls on the first floor are of uniform height. That being the case then 0" elevation for the second floor would be the top of the first floor walls. Then your second floor walls would offset to be on top of the second floor floor system. So if you have 2x10 floor joists (9 1/4") and a 3/4" subfloor your second floor walls would offset up 10" so they will be on top of the subfloor.

If you set your floor systems up correctly your wall offsets should also be correct because walls will automatically adjust their offsets to be on top of the floor system.

On the drawing I created from your 2nd floor I drew in plates to represent the exterior walls and beams below. Since the plates were 1 1/2" tall I offset them down 1 1/2" so that they would be at the same elevation as the top plates of the walls below. I could have accomplished the same thing by setting their height and offset to 0". The plates will give a visual of how the second floor relates to the first floor and it also gives something for the floor system and roof to attach to on the second floor. Some people prefer to use Multi-floor roofs but I personally prefer using plates on the second floor.

Hope this helps a little when trying to understand exactly what offsets are.

Tom Sams
Tom Sams's picture
Offsets

Thanks Bill.  That clears up the mechanics of it, which seems to be the root cause of my confusion.  I just didn't know what SP does automatically and what is expected of me to do.  In the drawing you did for me, since you offset the plate to be the same as the top plate of the 1st floor walls, the rafters will then set on the top plate of the 1st floor, will the 2nd floor floor joists rake to the angle of the rafters?

 

Tom

Bill Wimberley
Bill Wimberley's picture
Offsets

Yes, because the plates are set to be at the same elevation as the tops of the walls below the roof will treat them as if they are the first floor walls. Of course when you are talking about roofs you have a whole other set of dynamics at play. Pitch, Overhang, Heel Height, TOP to Fascia, Seat Cut, Rafter and Roof Sheathing sizes all interact to determine exactly where the rafters will sit on the walls. So if you have defined your roof properly prior to drawing it out then it should accurately represent the real world roof system. If you will go into Roof Options and set up your roof prior to actually placing the roof on the plan it will make things much simpler.